Sony NEX C3 or Nikon J1

[Russel]

Hi everyone!

I am looking at trading in my D300 (+18-55 lens), Panasonic ZS-10 and Canon A-800 for a small, flexible and highly-portable system that delivers good IQ up to at least ISO 800 and covers the 28-105mm focal range with ease. I want a lower-end body so I can spend more on lenses.

The bulk of my photography is travel, portrait and macro; as well as the occasional snapshots taken while with friends.

My primary concern is IQ. I made a mistake with the ZS-10 and I don’t want to be caught out again - highly recommended by friends, its IQ proved to be, well let's say images look as if they have been painted by one of the Impressionists.... I’m loath to go with a brand that is not a traditional camera manufacturer but if Sony is the better choice...

From what I have read the high-ISO of the Sony is better than that of the Nikon, which apparently translates to more detail, better low-light performance... tho the Sony apparently lacks good AF ?

However, the new Nikon lenses are meant to be very sharp and as I am a Nikon D300 user I will probably use my AF-S prime lenses on the J1 so it may make sense to stay with Nikon - if the adaptor is affordable.

I read that the Sony comes with a clip-on flash, while the J1 only has an internal one.

Thanks for your thoughts

R

[DCM]

Firstly apologies for the veeerrry long post..and secondly I may come off as all over the place but I believe I can shed some light…
I'm probably going to go down in hail of bullets for recommending this but there is a third option, micro 4/3 (four thirds) which personally I can comment/ give some advice on because I own both of the manufactures bodies involved in the system: Olympus and Panasonic.

In my case it started off as a bit of joke/challenge
The Joke or challenge was that I believed the Micro 4/3 camera's to be toys and wasn't going to spend big money on them also and here comes the warning, reviewers didn't really give these cameras a warm once over, rather the reviews seemed more or less cut and paste jobs of one another. So I just don’t bother with the reviews anymore, hire one beg, borrow steal and mess about with it for a few days and see if it meets your needs. I’m digressing again.

Anyway I have a Olympus EPL-1 and a Panasonic Gf2, I got both because while basically the same and sharing the same sensor they do things a little differently… the Oly does good stills faithful colour and 720p video. The Pana. Does okay on pictures and you can achieve better results with a bit of a fiddle but it does 1080 AVCHD video at about 24mb/s and can be hacked to do 44mb/s 4:2:0 AVCHD it’s a personal requirement/need.
Anyway the Pana. i bought second-hand for the princely sum of R2k with a 14mm f2.5 lens and the Oly new with a 14-45mm collapsible (read extremely compact) tele for R2750. I’m a self-confessed bargain hunter, but that’s not important.

Now both Oly and pana have their own lenses but because the system is a standard, they can share lenses J yippee for me.
The crux of my waffle is this, I tried higher end P&S camera’s and always came away disappointed seems you have as well, because I wanted SLR performance/features etc which meant I was always dragging my 7D and 24-105 around, while the photo’s have been mostly sublime, I always have to entertain friends/family etc on long pointless photography in’s and outs that I’m not always in the mood for because if I have the “big professional looking camera” with me, and inevitable I have to listen to some idiot tell me how their P&S is just as good as my 7D if not better or prey fear and terror how their iPhones can take “better’ pics then my gear.

With the Micro 4/3 camera it really is a street shooters dream I can still take the photo’s I want, with the control I want, and use a speciality lens, like macro or fisheye, and garner almost no unwanted photography jimmer jammer and enjoy the social.

So to answer your specific advice question, I had a NEX-3 for a week with the 18-55 kit lens, I returned it because if you’re coming from a DSLR the controls will drive you up the wall, Sony assumes you’re dumb and there is no way I know of to turn off the “dumb” assistant style the camera takes on. I found the lens line up rather thin and any half decent glass was prohibitively expensive, I mean L series and more but not up to the same quality. I thought that with the APS-C size CMOS that Sony goes on about ad nauseam ( kind of like my posts J) that I’d not have to compromise but in fact I found the camera to be gimmicky and the pictures sub-par in terms of IQ. I don’t feel the C3 has really addressed the main concerns, rather it’s just a new model for a new year, sorry I don’t like that, it’s not a fashion accessory. I don’t take the NEX system seriously, I know they sell but it really isn’t a bridge camera in terms of what Micro 4/3 is. My opinion, I’m sure someone will disagree.
The J1 I’ve used for about a day or so but (and this is not Nikon bashing) the body is just too small and fiddly the mode dial is on the back because the top plate is so narrow they just cannot fit it there obviously if compactness is high on the agenda then your vie of this will vary. You can get deals at the moment at incredible connection where they give you 2 maybe three lenses as a kit for I think under R7k, but I cannot comment at length on their quality etc…the pics I snapped and the sample pics I’ve scoured on the net seem to be fairly good, you can get an adapter to use the normal Nikon lenses, remember the mount is different.

That said Micro 4/3 doesn’t seem that big in SA and I’ve found photoclubs generally sneering if you pull one out, which to me goes to show that these clubs are also becoming a “what gear do you have game” instead of so what kind of photos/subjects do you like to shoot, unfortunately I found one or two photoshops who actually had them(micro4/3 camera’s), the staff knew nothing about what they were selling and prices where ridiculous, bordering on obscene, and hence I went off and decided my cheapo challenge was the way to go… for under 5K I have two fairly capable bodies and two basic lenses, I will say I love the Pana 14mm f2.5 and my view is this, if my 7D and backup body both stuffed out on a shoot, I’d be confident enough to finish the shoot with the Micro 4/3 camera, albeit I’d have to do some workarounds in terms of flash triggering etc, but in terms of IQ it would hold up even the canon adapter albeit manual focus costs about R200-300 there are Nikon ones as well. And Oly especially has some truly lust worthy glass some tipping the R30k mark that are for the micro 4/3 bodies and that to me defines whether or not I’m willing to invest not so much the money but the time in these alternatives, yes the body can make your life hell or bliss in-terms of ease of use but as a wise photography lecturers once said to me, don’t worry too much about the camera itself, it’s no point having a “fancy body” but you’re shooting through the back of a coke bottle…

Speaking on the technical stuff the NEX is as I mentioned is using a APS-C size sensor at I believe about 16 megapixels, but I’m not convinced, and the kind of tests a lot of photo review sites use to test them doesn’t answer real-world use.

The J1/V1 has its own sensor format called CX which is smaller than APS-C and smaller still than micro 4/3 (2x effective crop in 35mm terms)
Honestly the J1/V1 and micro 4/3 are the closest comparison, the CX sensor at 10.1 mega pixel and the micro 4/3 at 12.1 megapixel seems pixel density between the two sensors is about equal the 4/3 is denser but not a huge amount the main advantage is maybe better light gathering and some what better ISO sensitivity if you ignore the marketing fluff of which all of them are guilty of in one way or another.
I never really “not recommend” something to someone as it comes down to personal choice needs etc but the NEX is one of my not recommended cameras…

Which in short to my long winded post is, the J1 is not a bad deal and if it meets your needs as well as coming from a Nikon DLSR kind of makes sense if you’re invested in the brand, however given the price difference maybe try get a deal on a V1, the dedicated host shoe will possibly help if you need to get better flash with a dedicated speed light, that said the micro 4/3 system has some amazing flashes, the high end Pana is on my to buy list and I do think that you’re going to struggle to find a good macro lens in the CSC (compact system camera), in this case Oly and Pana have two amazing macro lenses about R5-6k, have proper hot shoes and are actually less of a compromise than I’ve found reviewers to make them out to be. Also the ZS-10 although also from Pana. Is no comparison to the Micro 4/3 system, I was nervous about pana. But have found they did an excellent job.
Guess if you want more info either way, just ask, and I’ll try keep the post short(ish) J

[Russel]

@DCM thanks for the long post

I guess I wont know until I actually use the cameras which wont happen until after payday (2nd April) and I intend to exploit that opportunity to the max. So far all the reviews say that the NEX fails in areas required as a must by photographers - IQ, metering & AF.

My favourite digital cameras of all time are the Canon G9 (I bought the ZS10 to replace this!), Nikon D40 and Ricoh GRD - in that order. Consequently I have considered the X10, G12 and P7100 but I feel I need something more at that price point.

Oh, my favourite 35mm cams: Oly 35RC (never missed a shot with it, ever!), Pentax MZ5N

[DCM]

[QUOTE=
My favourite digital cameras of all time are the Canon G9 (I bought the ZS10 to replace this!), Nikon D40 and Ricoh GRD - in that order. Consequently I have considered the X10, G12 and P7100 but I feel I need something more at that price point.

Oh, my favourite 35mm cams: Oly 35RC (never missed a shot with it, ever!), Pentax MZ5N[/QUOTE]

I don't believe it another GRD owner, still have mine, bought here on the classifieds about a year ago after trying to get my paws on one overseas forever, still think it takes the best B&W photo's ever without fiddling with settings etc...i assume you have the original mk1 or is it a later GRD II or III

If you;re not in a hurry I'd look into a micro 4/3 as well to play with and try out, i think you might be quite surprised...like i said i like to bargain hunt so I'm a bit flippant about the micros i bought because i paid very little for them, and landed up with a nice wide lens as well the 14mm f.2.5...but in a pinch i know they'll pass on professional work as well.

The NEX range is also i see climbing in price, like everything i guess, but I think Sony is trying to pass it off as a premium product and I'm sorry even the updated range still doesn't have me convinced...the NEX 3 I had, had particularly bad AF which I though was maybe a faulty body turned out the one in store i tried before returning it did the same thing, sometimes deadly accurate sometimes hunting for focus, even in good light...

Let us know what you test and what you finally decide on...be interesting to see what works for you and what you shoot.

[Russel]

Heh, I HAD the GR D 1; and one of the tele attachments. Bought it off a guy in Japan for less than $400. Used it for a year - GREAT for street shooting and I used to take it with me on interviews to shoot stills of the interviewee in case we decided to promo the doccies in newspapers or magazines. It was such an unobtrusive camera, partly because people always thought it was a film camera The B&W images were really good. Anyway, I was offered a deal on a lightly used G9 so I sold the Ricoh in 09.

I went on to take more pictures with the G9 than any other camera. Only passed it on to a friend after its 3rd repair. I decided not to spend more on it as I had spent quite a bit on the repairs in total. So I carried on with my D300 and a fast prime but couldnt take that everywhere with me so I bought the Panasonic. Im overseas on business right now and needed a camera after the G9 conked out so I researched what was available (settled on either the Ricoh CX2 or Sony WX10...), went to several stores that all advertised what I wanted on their websites but didnt have anything in stock. Bait n switch? I dunno, I wasnt in SA, didn't know the retailers at all and, whatever, took what I could get.

Which is why I'm holding on til I get back to look for a replacement - I can buy them cheaper here but whom am I buying from, you know?

Shot with a fellow photographer's EPL-1 last year when I was travelling. NICE lil camera, but the pricing I have seen is quite high for the Mk II and IIIs. You have some great deals with your kit

[ABDurbs]

Hi Russel, "I’m loath to go with a brand that is not a traditional camera manufacturer but if Sony is the better choice..." Sony is not a traditional camera manufacturer ???

Just curious as to why you are comparing a Nikon J1 to the Sony NexC3 and not the Nex 5N which would be a far better (& fairer) comparison? Prices are also roughly the same. There are plenty of Nex E lenses availbale and the system is being extended almost monthly, because this is a "serious" system and not "gimmicky". The Nex7 with the 24mm Carl Zeiss is one of the best "semi compact" cameras I have had the pleasure of trying out, but an expensive bit of equipment. Nex is a very successful system and should be taken seriously. My opinion I am sure some will disagree

That said I also enjoy the micro 4/3 systems with a particular soft spot for the "older" Panasonic GF1 which one can buy in SA (with a 14-42mm), for about R2 600.00. An absolute bargain for a good/fun street camera. They do take some getting used to, but that's the same with any new system.

Good luck with your choice

[Russel]

Hi AB

I have no idea as to SA brick n mortar pricing yet as I am still away on business (have been all year) but I will check out the shops when I return in April. I have looked online at the ODP site but don't see any micro cameras advertised, but they are on the Kamaraz site - but without pricing. The one exception being the C3 + kit zoom for R 6,930.00.

The Nikon J1 with the two kit zooms they advertise at R 8,150.00. They have pricing for the V1 as well but its unrealistic in terms of my budget.

[Henk Coetzee]

I’m loath to go with a brand that is not a traditional camera manufacturer but if Sony is the better choice...

Remember that Sony took over Minolta, so there's a bit of history there. If you look at the Alphas, there's a line of descent that goes back to the first practical autofocus SLR system, further back, the first program mode on an SLR etc. etc. Not that Nikon doesn't have a tradition going back. If all you need is tradition, remember the possibility of Zeiss lenses with the Sony.

Just curious as to why you are comparing a Nikon J1 to the Sony NexC3 and not the Nex 5N which would be a far better (& fairer) comparison?

I was wondering the same. It all depends on what you plan to shoot, but the 1.5 crop factor of the Sony would also be a decider for me. I've actually thought of getting hold of a NEX-5N with a 16mm pancake as a walkaround system.

That said I also enjoy the micro 4/3 systems with a particular soft spot for the "older" Panasonic GF1 which one can buy in SA (with a 14-42mm), for about R2 600.00. An absolute bargain for a good/fun street camera. They do take some getting used to, but that's the same with any new system.

Where? I've been thinking of a smaller camera for travel and this would be ideal.

[ABDurbs]

Henk, last Saturday at Govan Mani in Gateway, Durban. May still be on special.

[Leo Theron]

These were taken with a Pana(sonic) GF1.

http://www.pbase.com/leot/gf1_2010

On the site (www.pbase.com/leot - Marokko thread) I have used the Pana G1 + 20/1.7 and the shots are mingled with the Nikon shots. Impossible to pick out unless you look at the EXIF. Maybe your eyes are better than mine …

I would love a V1/J1, but the price of the GF1 and 20/1.7 beats it hands down at the moment!

[Russel]

Leo is the4 small cam king! BTW, LOVE the Dak Party pics.

Back to my thread:

I want a small camera with a dedicated ISO & exp comp buttons, good IQ, good ISO up to 800; good metering and good AF. Sony? Nikon? W/e - and can someone give me pricing, please

[DCM]

These were taken with a Pana(sonic) GF1.

http://www.pbase.com/leot/gf1_2010

On the site (www.pbase.com/leot - Marokko thread) I have used the Pana G1 + 20/1.7 and the shots are mingled with the Nikon shots. Impossible to pick out unless you look at the EXIF. Maybe your eyes are better than mine … [IMG]file:///C:\Users\LENOVO\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01 \clip_image001.png[/IMG]

I would love a V1/J1, but the price of the GF1 and 20/1.7 beats it hands down at the moment!

Buy the way nice shots…

...And the bargain price aside, the 20/1.7 hands down beats the Sony NEX 16mm lenses by a mile the 16mm pancake for the NEX has bad CA and the Bokeh is, how can I put it nicely - Rubbish! The center 25% is pin sharp and then the rest goes horribly wrong. It's why I un-shamelessly bash the NEX system as "gimmicky" Sony is using the Consumer to "test" its stuff - sorry not on! I don’t Care if the body’s become better etc, they don't have decent Glass, and no, forking out for a Carl Zeiss 24mm @ almost R10k for the lens is unrealistic ... The 20/1.7 is also better than the current Nikon 30mm lense specific to the V1/J1, but I’m sure Nikon will address that sooner or later…

[Russel]

Steff Huff reviewed the 20/1.7 here: http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/0...7-lens-review/

The 20/1.7 comes in kit form with the Panny GF1 and damn, it sure is a hell of a kit lens. That is one of the areas where Panasonic has Olympus beat. The kit lens. Both their 20 1.7 and 14-45 beat Olympus’s 17/2.8 and 14-42 kit lenses.

Anyone agree with that statement?

[Russel]

... the 16mm pancake for the NEX has bad CA and the Bokeh is, how can I put it nicely - Rubbish

@DCM thanks for mentioning that. I've not read anything about the bokeh on the Sony lenses, or CA. I have read they are not the sharpest though.

[Leo Theron]

Steff Huff reviewed the 20/1.7 here: http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2010/0...7-lens-review/



Anyone agree with that statement?

Fully Agree… but go and judge for yourself:

Here is a zip with images - all taken with the 20/1.7 on a Pana G1

http://db.tt/HVvBPXNo

[Russel]

Tnx Leo, I'll check em out

[Russel]

Leo, those are great photos! Looks like it was a fabulous trip. Yup, the images are really sharp, colours are great. Did you shoot raw?

[Leo Theron]

Tks Russel.

Yes, those were all shot in a few spare hours… Paris/Bordeaux/Rabat/Fez and back to Paris, inbetween other things.

Normally people shlep a huge kit along… while you can get shots like this with a basic camera and ONE prime lens. There is one secret - For a number of the low light shots, the camera was on a tripod. (Bourse, Port Cailhou) The rest, including the street in Bordeaux for example, was shot out of hand. And yes - those were shot in RAW, processed in LR 3.

Here is an article that I wrote on traveling with a P&S camera. It was published in the now defunct Camera and Image magazine.

[DCM]

Here is an article that I wrote on traveling with a P&S camera. It was published in the now defunct Camera and Image magazine.

Hi Leo, a little off topic but i'm on a bargain hunting binge again and would like to know if you or if anyone else can tell me if the Olympus FS-STF22 macro flash can be used with the Pen series ? Olympus' site is a bit think on actual info

[Leo Theron]

R,

I do not know… so you can try your hand at Google...